Curse

Bryant Again · Jan 20, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I made the text smaller so it takes up less space, just so ya'll know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

It also excludes players (like me) that want to play the character/profession they chose to make. I didn't develope a character of each profession to be forced to use a "cookie-cutter profession"(precisely what Ursan is) every time I do an elite mission.

It also excludes those that do not want to grind EotN rep titles. This also happens in DoA with the LB title, but at least that title is in the same campaign and can actually be increased while doing the mission. UB also makes it easier to replace a party member if you find someone with a higher rank because there is no concern for what profession they are.

Precisely. It doesn't help discrimination. It may help class discrimination, but in it's stead brings different different problems to the table. And another one of my favorite bits: Quite a few people are still going to be unhappy. I don't think a person rolled a Mesmer or a Ritualist to hit things. If they wanted to do that, why not roll just roll a Warrior?

Following brought from this thread, because it's more appropriate here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

I don't like to argue "what ifs". Fact of the matter is, there is no skill like that in the game; there is not a skill that comes remotely close to it, so why would I waste my time trying to defend it. It doesn't exist. Ursan does, and yes you are reading the "it's not my instance, so it doesn't affect me." Why do I make that argument? Simple, it's true. If or when Anet introduces a skill that does the things you described, I'll remember to let you know how I feel about it.

It actually leads to my question: How broke can a skill be before you say "this is bad for the game"? Where do you draw the line?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

If someone thinks Ursan makes them good, so what? Is your ego that sensitive that people doing things that you do in a quicker manner it makes you feel like a lesser player/person? Or is it that you're trying to convince me that you think so highly of yourself along with being the most compassionate PvE crusader playing this game that you want everyone playing GW to be as skillful in PvE as you?

It's the fact that it essentially changes how the game has been played for over three years - and it played damn good! - is why I'm chiefly concerned. It's an online game that's been changing since its release, sure, but I don't see why ANet would make such a negative change to it.

When you're somewhat of an inexperienced player and you're able to complete high-end and difficult tasks in an Ursan group, you're missing out on a lot of content. Content is not just going through the areas but it is also the journey that you, the player, have through the game - and this is something that applies to every game on the market.

Giving the option of playing as Ursanway is fine and dandy, just as fine and acceptable as it is lowering the difficulty bar in Oblivion or playing on an easier game mode in Doom. If a person is having a hard time, I have no problem with them handicapping themselves. I'd just greatly appreciate it if it was made universally aware that this was what you were doing when you go the way of the bear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Again, I don't participate in those arguments. They're weak and have nothing to do with anything currently in game.

My point is that the fact that something getting people to play together always depends on what it's costing the game. Just because it gets people to play together does not mean it's good for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Your point is more or less just an exaggeration to promote Ursan of being a god-mode skill.

In the most basic sense, I asked him what he would think if they added an insanely overpowered and damaging addition to the game. I am not basing Ursan on it's "godmodeness" (which it is not) but more of it's harmful affects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

One of the purposes in playing a game is to have an entitlement from playing the game, and this may include beating a certain mission or farming a certain weapon, but with a skill like Ursan, the so-called entitlement can become rather meaningless. In saying this, I'm not claiming to be an elitist who tries to dictate how others should play the game, but my point is, I believe there is a need to have entitlements within Guild Wars, despite the upcoming release of Guild Wars 2. My question is, how far can the line be drawn to satisfy both parties?

Thank goodness, I agree with you on this : ) And that last sentence is something I've been asking for a while, as well...Now, where we agree on where to draw the line may be a different problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

You have demoted the players who use Ursan will become inexperienced players, but the fact is, that do not apply to all the Ursan users.

That's actually almost opposite of what I said: I said that it won't turn you into a good player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Secondly, don't use emotions such as you being happy as one of your points when comes to an argument; it is quite weak.

I said "I would be happy if they made this change" i.e. "I would be content if they did this" i.e. "this would be a well suitable change for me." You can't take what I say too literally. I'm sorry if the way I write is a bit different than what you may be used to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

In this case, the quality of the game is already nearly nothingless as Guild Wars 2 is about to release, and it's only one year now. And in my perspective, most the people I know have already quit the game, and this includes the top PvP players who had their names shined on the official Guild Wars page.

Wait...What happened to the quality of the game?? It's still completely solid as RPGs go. I don't see where all this terrible bad stuff is coming from to downgrade it as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

And once again, you made another exaggeration to Ursan being god-mode, since it does not drop 100k each time you kill a monster.

Sorry to make you assume such. If you noticed what I had posted in the earlier thread, I never mentioned nor referenced Ursan doing anything like this. You can see the point of what I said higher up in this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

The fact is, you are just able to go through areas little bit faster, although I believe hardcore players who know the secrets to builds can go even faster.

It's not "just a bit faster." It's VERY much faster, not only in terms of plowing through areas but also in party orginization. People won't care what you bring as long as you got Ursan (that's really all you need) and monks for healing/etc. Just fill up on Ursans, take a side of Monks, and you're good to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Even so, I do not believe that everyone should follow my way when they are playing, but my point is, after loot scaling, skill packs and now Ursan, don't we need even just a bit of entitlement?

Skill packs are a blessing, loot scaling is easily managable (go farm in hard mode.) Why should we have the right to be "entitled" when ANet instead improved the game?

Wall of Text courtesy of Bryant Again....again

FoxBat · Jan 20, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

It gives all of these classes that would have never been able to accomplish some things or be invited into a group for some elite mission a chance to finally be accepted.

Ursan is it's own class, in case you haven't tried it, it replaces your entire skill bar. When you wear the form you aren't playing a mesmer or a necro or a warrior or whatever, you're just playing ursan.

The various overpowered PvE skills (including ursan) make Balancedway actually possible now in DoA. We've cleared areas with curse necros and paragon shouters even. There's no reason they can't find groups other than pugs being narrow-minded (which is how it works for every other elite mission, including the easy ones.)

Wildi · Jan 20, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

The concept behind Ursan & Junundu is the same, except Ursan is less powerful + zero self heal.

Bryant Again · Jan 20, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

The concept behind Ursan & Junundu is the same, except Ursan is less powerful + zero self heal.

And that it's universal.

zwei2stein · Jan 20, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

The concept behind Ursan & Junundu is the same, except Ursan is less powerful + zero self heal.

It is not.

In order to do HM in Desolation you still need to get out of worm and you need to be able to take care of enemies in rocky areas in your puny human form. And those enemies are hader ones out there (SS ele boss for example.).

Also, Junundu never interfeered with game outside of its location. No elite mission statues decorate HoMs of mending wammos because of it.

In fact, junundu greatly helped to reduce grind of NF (simple effective farm for those point titles)

zwei2stein · Jan 20, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

Just because YOU think it dumbs down the game doesn't mean jack squat.

If random pug of people who struggle to pass normal storyline can finish hardest elite area in game in one afternoon, just thanks to it, it is pretty hard to argue that it does NOT dumb game down.

i see it already, "but we wiped once" argument incoming ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

People are running DoA faster and easier than you can.

Wrong.

People are running DoA way faster and way easier than intended.

That looks better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

I don't know who you are but you sound like some random people I've pugged with before that think they know everything ... Izzy probably knows a hell of alot more about this game than you do and he has seen fit NOT to nerf it, so shut up about it.

So, you know all about why Izzy didnt nerf it? That sounds quite alot like "i know it all" pople you qqed about in same paragraph.

There are lots of reason why Izzy didnt nerf it. Maybe he didnt get clearance to nerf it (aka, was not allowed to by superiors)
Maybe he does not care about PvE ballance (which he aparently does not even think can exist based on his quotes) so he sees no point in nerfing it, even if he thinks its bad skill.
Maybe nerf is in pipeine and was set back by bug fixes to that skill which took priority.

Also, ask top PvPers how much Izzy knows about game, they would propably say something about Izzy living in some distant universe. Its pretty much always the case that hardcore players know more about game than its creators (did you know that, i.e. ultima online devs used fansite resourses to get information about their own game.). It is because devs have to keep in head all possibilities and it can seriously mess you up to point when you confuse live version features with featues that were abandoned during development. Maybe he was "wtf, ursan blessing is same bar we gave to people in mission and not thing norns use? Oh noes, what do we do."

CougarTheTall · Jan 20, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

If random pug of people who struggle to pass normal storyline can finish hardest elite area in game in one afternoon, just thanks to it, it is pretty hard to argue that it does NOT dumb game down.

i see it already, "but we wiped once" argument incoming ...

I say again. What does it matter to you? Why do you care about what other people do/accomplish? From what i've read, most of the people here consider titles to be useless/pointless/noobish to begin with, so what difference does it make if they use Ursan to obtain it. It's in the game, they used it, it worked. End of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Wrong.

People are running DoA way faster and way easier than intended.

That looks better.

I believe that is a personal opinion. It that was the case it would have been nerfed. It wasn't. QQ some more. It doesn't affect you unless you want it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

So, you know all about why Izzy didnt nerf it? That sounds quite alot like "i know it all" pople you qqed about in same paragraph.

I never said I knew why Izzy didn't nerf it, only that he didn't, HE DIDN'T. Stop putting words in my mouth. However, I'm sure that if he had the time to put thought into nerfing something as already useless as Scorpion Wire then I'm pretty sure Ursan has flown across the table more than once. The fact remains, someone at Anet sees fit not to nerf it. ANet>You end of story. You can cry about Ursan until your eyes bleed but until ANet shares your sentiment you are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There are lots of reason why Izzy didnt nerf it. Maybe he didnt get clearance to nerf it (aka, was not allowed to by superiors)
Maybe he does not care about PvE ballance (which he aparently does not even think can exist based on his quotes) so he sees no point in nerfing it, even if he thinks its bad skill.
Maybe nerf is in pipeine and was set back by bug fixes to that skill which took priority.

Perhaps you make it more complicated than it really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Also, ask top PvPers how much Izzy knows about game, they would propably say something about Izzy living in some distant universe. Its pretty much always the case that hardcore players know more about game than its creators (did you know that, i.e. ultima online devs used fansite resourses to get information about their own game.). It is because devs have to keep in head all possibilities and it can seriously mess you up to point when you confuse live version features with featues that were abandoned during development. Maybe he was "wtf, ursan blessing is same bar we gave to people in mission and not thing norns use? Oh noes, what do we do."

No.

Bryant Again · Jan 20, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

I say again. What does it matter to you? Why do you care about what other people do/accomplish? From what i've read, most of the people here consider titles to be useless/pointless/noobish to begin with, so what difference does it make if they use Ursan to obtain it. It's in the game, they used it, it worked. End of story.

As I've stated repeatedly (and now italicized for emphasis): Where do you draw the line in how overpowered a skill is to become? You yourself said that Ursan doesn't affect you if you don't want it to. That's nearly the same argument that could be used for an option in the settings that made it so all monsters died in one hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

I never said I knew why Izzy didn't nerf it, only that he didn't, HE DIDN'T. Stop putting words in my mouth. However, I'm sure that if he had the time to put thought into nerfing something as already useless as Scorpion Wire then I'm pretty sure Ursan has flown across the table more than once.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall, previous post

Izzy probably knows a hell of alot more about this game than you do and he has seen fit NOT to nerf it, so shut up about it.

So are you now saying Izzy doesn't know what he's doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

ANet>You end of story.

ANet can do whatever they'd like to the game. I just want to know why some think it's acceptable that they degrade it.

Last point is quoted fer the lulz:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CougarTheTall

No.

CougarTheTall · Jan 20, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Fine, I fold. Since the Ursan crybabies will not and cannot be swayed all I can suggest is that they add two more skills to the Ursan Blessing to balance it out once and for all.

I present, the new skills added to the Ursan Blessing:

Two skill slots dedicated to Tears No More. Not only that, but the Ursan Elite Icon will now have two bottles of Tears No More on either side so that tears can be avoided prior to and during use.

Have fun with your tear free Ursan!

DivineEnvoy · Jan 20, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In the most basic sense, I asked him what he would think if they added an insanely overpowered and damaging addition to the game. I am not basing Ursan on it's "godmodeness" but more if it's harmful affects.

The problem with this argument does not reside with what you intended with the argument, but it resides within how the reader would react or conclude from your argument. To avoid errors, you would have to keep the logics within your argument simple and clear.

Here's a relevant argument if I use your logic:

Two students are throwing rocks at each other. I would ask you how far should the line be drawn if they are throwing nuclear missles at each other.

As you can see, throwing rocks is a different matter when it's compared to throwing nuclear missles, despite the fact that they are both the same action. To analyze this further, you are trying to promote a worse consequence (which does not exist) to explain what possible consequence the current situation may result in, but the problem is, these two premises do not relate, despite they being similar, and so the consequences do not connect as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Thank goodness, I agree with you on this : ) And that last sentence is something I've been asking for a while, as well...Now, where we agree on where to draw the line may be a different problem.

Like I said previously, it was more or less a possible fix to your argument. It was not my point or argument as I would like to stay neutral at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's actually almost opposite of what I said: I said that it won't turn you into a good player.

That is still not the actual fact, since the actual fact may vary from person to person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I said "I would be happy if they made this change" i.e. "I would be content if they did this" i.e. "this would be a well suitable change for me." You can't take what I say too literally. I'm sorry if the way I write is a bit different than what you may be used to.

In an argument, it is best for you to not use this type of logics, because, as a reader, I find it rather biased.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Wait...What happened to the quality of the game?? It's still completely solid as RPGs go. I don't see where all this terrible bad stuff is coming from to downgrade it as such.

My point, in this case, is that what is really the quality of the game if no one plays it. As many people are leaving the game, it's like how people would desert a city, and someone would still comment about the life quality to live in this city. It doesn't seem very strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Sorry to make you assume such. If you noticed what I had posted in the earlier thread, I never mentioned nor referenced Ursan doing anything like this. You can see the point of what I said higher up in this post.

Read above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's not "just a bit faster." It's VERY much faster, not only in terms of plowing through areas but also in party orginization. People won't care what you bring as long as you got Ursan (that's really all you need) and monks for healing/etc. Just fill up on Ursans, take a side of Monks, and you're good to go.

I do not play in Ursanways, so most my views came from playing Ursan with Heroes/Henches, and it's really just a bit faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Skill packs are a blessing, loot scaling is easily managable (go farm in hard mode.) Why should we have the right to be "entitled" when ANet instead improved the game?

Not really, after spending hours capping all the elites in PvE so I can use them in PvP, then they just release a Skill Pack so everyone can buy it. However, I don't really care. My point is, people are upset from these changes, but their so-called morals are really just opinions. What I was trying to say, in this case, is that Anet has allowed so many tasks to be done easily to the point there's no entitlement, but we do need entitlements to some extend to satisfy both parties.

Once again, that's more or less just a fix from your argument. It's not really my opinion.

Razz Thom · Jan 20, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I have no desire to get involved fully here, but......

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

In fact, junundu greatly helped to reduce grind of NF (simple effective farm for those point titles)

I must point out the glaring contradiction you made here. Because you obviously support using the overpowered nature of the junundu to farm, but scorn the overpowered nature of UB for the same thing. Pick a side plz. If you must argue about it please don't blur the lines as this could cause the rest of us who don't care either way some confusion as to which side of the fence you are playing on. Kthnx.

zwei2stein · Jan 20, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz Thom

I have no desire to get involved fully here, but......

I must point out the glaring contradiction you made here. Because you obviously support using the overpowered nature of the junundu to farm, but scorn the overpowered nature of UB for the same thing. Pick a side plz. If you must argue about it please don't blur the lines as this could cause the rest of us who don't care either way some confusion as to which side of the fence you are playing on. Kthnx.

If you dont want to get involved in flamewars, stop using "Kthx" speech. Now, that i can look down to you as aol kiddie, let me explain:

Ok, let me ask first, where did i say i dont like farming? Nowhere, i might answer. People are free to grind their asses off if that is their poison (but i do go WTF are you playing gw for if you enjoy that kind of thing) Hell, i designed some of better farmbuilds out there. Because i like the fact that you can use skills in clever way to create unexpected.

But thing is ... faming builds are harmless to challenge of game because, well, because they suck because they dont work everywhere. Strong farm build can be used to roll monsters but its fragile at same time. Farming also serves to ease grind, which is positive.

Ursan on the other hand works everywhere. It allows you to Complete supposedly insanely hard area and walk away with statue casually. There is huge difference from simple farming run for worthless green or some points to title. Huge.

I also disagree with grind rewarding people with power. Bear means that grind is rewarded with power. It used not to be case and it used to be why i got to GW to begin with.

ensoriki · Jan 20, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

stfu about ursan now.

You've discussed it enough in this thread.
people who are arguing will not be swayed by each others arguments easily so don't waste your times. Although your likely to ignore me, since hijacking the Skill Update thread is fun.

I thought this thread was talking about the update.
What you liked or didn't like.

Discussing why OMFG Ursan wasn't nerfed for 10 pages is silly.

Anyways.

Got 4 sin utility buffs, this update
I wan't to see more.

Razz Thom · Jan 20, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

ok......

BEAR with me (pun intended).....

using ursan to grind a title is bad? right?

but using junundu to grind SS/LB title is ok?

maybe stop contradicting yourself moron.

that is twice you have said using something overpowered is bad and good in the same post. hypocrit. period.

PS. on topic, skill update was good. no PvP encroachment into PvE playability is always a good thing.

zwei2stein · Jan 20, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz Thom

using ursan to grind a title is bad? right?

I never, ever said that.

READ with me (punch intended).

ensoriki · Jan 20, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Well uh my ranger used Magebane in PvE,
so it encroached >.>

Quote:

using ursan to grind a title is bad? right?

Ursan is a titled base skill

A title powered skill, allowing you to grind more titles.

Btw you can take Ursan blessing wherever Junundu's are.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 20, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The concept behind Ursan is bad regardless, if only because of the very concept itself. Lose the curt responses, it's not helping.

I did read your post correctly, you didn't read (understand, maybe?) mine. Good, they're seperate, good, they affect each other in different.

The concept behind nerfing skills in either comes back to the same applicable reason, that is, imbalance.

The concept behind nerfing PvE skills differs to that of PvP skills. If you can't figure out why that's not my fault. Post less crap please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Got 4 sin utility buffs, this update
I wan't to see more.

They're mediocre at best.

ensoriki · Jan 20, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

They're mediocre at best.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be more.

I expect the next Skill update to have

25 Assassin Skill buffs
1 skill nerf (Scorpion wire gonna get the boot)
and 2 Mechanic Changes!

bhavv · Jan 20, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Guild Wars is supposed to reward player skill, not give every tom dick and harry ursan blessing so that they can play PVE with zero skill.

I vote for bannage of consumables, all PVE skills, and to balance for this and allow easy play in the game, allow 7 heroes!

>Activates burning shield to protect from flames<

Bryant Again · Jan 20, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Two students are throwing rocks at each other. I would ask you how far should the line be drawn if they are throwing nuclear missles at each other.

I'd understand but throwing rocks in no way relates to my original question: How powerful can something be to be considered too much? My original point was in no way an attempt to compare Ursan to a non-existant and overpowered skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

That is still not the actual fact, since the actual fact may vary from person to person.

Again, you take my passages too literally. Nothing is fact on these forums, but you assume your opinions based off of tiny pieces of probability and evidence. That aside, I can confidently say that a player has a higher chance to learn much more in a balanced team consisting of many professions and builds rather than a group of six people using UB.

Quote:

In an argument, it is best for you to not use this type of logics, because, as a reader, I find it rather biased.

Then you are reading too into it. Even though the word "happy" is a personal term I am not using it in such a context to prove or justify my point. If it would make you feel better I can go back to the original passage, make the wording as formal as possible, and I would still have my message be made across on these forums. This is just how I write and I'm sorry that it can be misleading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

My point, in this case, is that what is really the quality of the game if no one plays it.

Quantity does not always equate to quality, something many here would say of World of Warcraft's success. But if people are not buying the game then it goes much farther then the game itself.

That said, resorting to cheapening the game is never a good idea. It chips the quality and, depending on how cheapen it, consistency of the game. I'd much rather have a high quality but somewhat sparse game than an overpopulated mess of last-resorts. Not to mention, why does ANet *have* to keep us playing? It isn't like the game is pay-to-play or anything. Sometimes games just get boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

What I was trying to say, in this case, is that Anet has allowed so many tasks to be done easily to the point there's no entitlement, but we do need entitlements to some extend to satisfy both parties.

Unless I'm wrong, the skills are only unlocked for your account, not your character. So that entitlement for PvE still remains (this too, as you pointed out, varoes). The unlock packs are there for purchase to make the PvP playing field equal - as it should be.